We are, apparently, going to see a rise in the number of Seriously Dramatic (TM) capes and tights movies in the next few years because, according to Joker director Todd Phillips, “woke culture” has ruined comedy. As so many others have done this week, I’d point him to Taika Waititi’s forthcoming JoJo Rabbit, in which the Maori/Jewish director also stars. As slapstick Hitler. I’m sure there are people who are angry about that, but the vast majority of folx I’ve spoken to think it’s both genius and hilarious. (I’ve been trying to be more reasonable about which hills I’m willing to die on lately, but I will 100% sacrifice myself on Mount Taika Waititi is Freaking Hilarious.)

Regardless, Phillips’s opinion has led him to make a movie about Batman’s arch nemesis who reached his peak when he was voiced by Mark Hamill (in fairness, I also think Kevin Conroy is the best Batman ever, don’t @ me), had pet hyenas, made all the fish in Gotham river die smiling, and even gave the hero and sidekick the opportunity to bust out some truly insane gadgets of their own.

This is not to say that Hamill’s performance lacked nuance: his Joker, when enraged, was terrifying, even when clad in a bright purple suit. He was an abuser and cruel simply because it made him feel like a big man. And his mounting rage and frustration at not being able to achieve his goal – his willingness to disregard all lives, any lives, in his quest to best the Bat – will raise the hair on the back of your neck if you think about it long enough.

Is some of the humor in Batman: The Animated Series outdated? Absolutely. There is a definite lack of characters of color and for god’s sake, Alfred, please go through Bruce’s closet and get rid of the shoulder pads. That said, the show is still wildly popular, and one of the reasons is its Joker. People tweet about rewatches, or even watching it for the first time, constantly. Which proves the point that the Joker can be terrifying and dramatic and also funny.

Although the Joker has been a presence for decades, part of his schtick is that we didn’t know his origins. We had no idea where he came from or when or why. Various writers have taken their turn at playing with his origins, but it was more about throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what happened rather than expecting it to stick. Heath Ledger gets credit for best integrating this into his performance.

Throughout The Dark Knight, any time anyone asks about his past, Ledger’s Joker told a different story: some were horrific, some were funny, and some were shockingly normal. The key here, is that he never told the same story twice and that was one of the reasons that Joker became legend. It’s not that his origin doesn’t matter, it’s that he could, literally, have been anyone. Your kid’s teacher, your next-door neighbor, a police officer, the mayor… literally anyone. Did you start checking over your shoulder a little more after The Dark Knight? I did.

For all these reasons and more I’m not going to go into right now because this is already a lengthy introduction, a gritty, realistic Joker origin is not something I’m interested in.

Of course, the Joker isn’t (contrary to popular belief) the only villain out there. There are lots of them, and many actually have interesting origin stories. They come to villainy through attempts to better their own lives or those of people around them, through pushing the boundaries of scientific inquiry, through natural inclination to challenge society, or simply because they want to, but they at least acknowledge their part in their fall.

Here are five villains whose origins I’d rather see in film than the Joker’s:

Doctor Doom

Okay, bear with me here for a second, because I know the Doom most of you immediately conjure is Julian McMahon’s, and while I’ve seen that actor play the villain gorgeously in other media (remember when he was Phoebe’s demon husband on Charmed? That was some quality scenery chewing), those movies were just… really bad.

I’m talking about Doom’s original origin. The one where he’s born in a Romany camp in Latveria. His mother, a sorceress, was murdered by Mephisto, and his father, a healer, had to take the child and run one night after his skills failed to save a noblewoman’s life. Victor survived exposure, but his father, Werner Von Doom, did not, leaving the boy an orphan.

Victor studied both magic and science in hopes of resurrecting his mother. Though he failed, State University heard of his skill and intelligence and offered him a scholarship. It was at State that he met Reed Richards and Ben Grimm for the first time. They didn’t like one another much, probably because Richards saw Victor as competition, so it’s of little wonder that Von Doom ignored Richards’s warnings about a flaw in his calculations when Victor was testing a machine that would allow him to astral project into other planes to look for his mother’s soul. Alas, Reed was correct and the machine exploded, scarring Victor’s face. Soon thereafter he was expelled for ethics violations.

After wandering the world for a time, Victor returned to Latveria and overthrew the duke who had punished his father. He then declared himself king. Though part of his intent was to use the treasury to further his goals of world domination, bringing him into conflict not only with the Fantastic Four but also any number of heroes, he also made a concerted effort to better the lives of his and other Romany tribes living in Latveria – as well as the well-being of his other subjects. The Panther God of Wakanda even judged him worthy and his desire for a peaceful utopia genuine, despite his methods.

To make matters even more complex – and interesting – Doom is a villain with a specific code of honor. He always adheres to his exact word, though that may or may not be of benefit to the person with whom he made the deal. And despite it all, there are people he cares for, people he would protect. We even get flashes of humor as a respite from pain and rage.

Victor from V.E. Schwab’s Vicious

What is it about guys named Victor? Guys named Victor who are scientific geniuses specifically?

Victor and Eli begin their time together as roommates, but a shared interest in the theory that near-death experiences breed superpowers find them becoming co-researchers with ambitions of grandeur. When their experiments prove successful, however, chaos ensues and Victor is arrested. Released 10 years later, Victor, with the renewed purpose of avenging himself upon Eli, tracks down his old friend only to find Eli murdering every superpowered individual he can find. So who’s the villain? Who’s the hero? Is anyone with the amount of power Eli and Victor have a hero? Can they be? Or are they doomed to live long enough to inevitably become the villain?

Engaging and thought provoking, Vicious is a novel about individuals who happen to have powers, built not around the powers themselves but around people who have deliberately stepped over a line into a position from which they cannot retreat.

Emma Frost

Emma first appeared in comics in 1980 and was introduced as the super villain also known as The White Queen of the Hellfire Club. Per her creator, Chris Claremont, Emma was directly inspired by Emma Peel of the television duo known as The Avengers (not those Avengers; the British ones), portrayed by Diana Rigg.

Born in Boston to a wealthy, though distant, family, Emma was bullied at school until her telepathic powers manifested, allowing her to read the minds of the other students. After a falling out with her father, Emma left home and struck out on her own. After being homeless for a time, Emma met a man and fell in love, but he was killed when their plot to extort money out of her father with a fake kidnapping went awry. Emma used her powers to turn the kidnappers against one another and escaped with the money. She used it to enroll in Empire State University, where she met a fellow telepath she later learned manipulated the circumstances of their frienship and, after a telepathic battle, left the other woman comatose. From there, she was invited to the elite Hellfire Club, where she uncovered a plot to kill all mutants; Frost struck first and took control of the Club.

Along with the club came (1) control of a great deal of money she used to fund members’ enterprises and (2) the position of headmistress of the Massachusetts Academy, intended to serve as an option for mutant children and teens besides Xavier’s School. Frost attempted to recruit Kitty Pryde, which led her into conflict with the X-Men, after which she was left comatose by a battle with Jean Grey. She later used her powers to force Kitty’s parents to send her to the Massachusetts Academy and switched minds with Storm, though the latter was quickly discovered and remedied.

Drawing from the Academy, Frost recruits a team of young mutants she named The Hellions, who encountered the New Mutants regularly. After the New Mutants were killed and resurrected, she offered her services to help them adjust and also coerced Magneto, their headmaster, to allow them to transfer to her school and join the Hellfire Club.

Frost, who apparently retained some humanity, was devastated when her students were killed by Sentinels and her sister betrayed her, forcing Frost to kill her. In an effort to flee from her pain, Frost traveled to Genosha where she too is attacked by Sentinels but saved by a “miraculous” secondary mutation: the ability to turn herself into a flexible, near-indestructible, diamond-like substance. Rescued from the rubble by the X-Men, Emma decided it was time to become a hero, accepting a position at Xavier’s school, later becoming headmistress and Cyclops’ partner after Jean’s death.

If I were writing this script, I’d end the film at the point where Emma is rescued from Genosha, at the moment she decides to live a different life – one of a hero rather than a villain. I love that Emma became a villain willingly and then, later in her life, learned from her past actions and made the decision to become a hero. She’s one of few female comic characters from the era who has true free will, who isn’t coerced into turning over a new leaf, who does so for herself rather than for a man, and who takes power and isn’t ashamed of her ambition. 100% here for it.

Nova from Marissa Meyer’s Renegades

Prodigies – humans with superpowers, emerged after the collapse of society, keeping the peace and demanding justice after the institutions that formerly did so were buried under the rubble.

Or so the Prodigies claim.

Nova, though, remembers the day the Prodigies killed her parents and baby sister. The day she was forced to go into hiding with her uncle, growing up in abandoned subway tunnels, foraging for food and medical supplies, always on the run from those same Prodigies. Fed by her uncle’s rhetoric and her own experience and grief, Nova makes vengeance her life’s mission.

A chance encounter gives Nova an unexpected entree into the heroes’ world, and she takes it despite the danger, working as a double agent for her small tribe of outcast, one-time villains.  Her resolve falters, however, when she meets Adrian, whose fathers are the Prodigies’ leaders, and she realizes that, like Nova herself, there are heroes who truly do want justice. Will that be enough to lead her down the Emma Frost path, or will she remain loyal to the people who cared for her after her parents died?

Some of you might think basing a film on a YA book will mean it’s for children and children only. I certainly used to. But I’ve been reading a lot more YA the past couple of years, and there is some really excellent, sophisticated stuff out there that could stand on its own against any number of “adult” novels. Books that dig into the events and people who influence us, who make us who we are. How and why two people can face the same challenges and answer them completely differently. Into the shades of gray and moral ambiguity we’re so sure we understand as adults until we have to look it in the face and make our own choices.

Maud from Helene Tursten’s An Elderly Lady Is Up to No Good

Maud has been living in her gorgeous apartment rent-free since her father’s death when she was 18. Now 88, Maud is happy traveling the world and surfing the internet from her father’s armchair – at least until something comes along to threaten her comfort. Maud, you see, will defend her territory by any means necessary and against all comers, be they ex-lovers, local celebrities, or annoying neighbors.

When things go awry, law enforcement is called to investigate a murder in the building, and Maud finds everything she’s fought for, and even things she’s killed for, at risk. Can she outsmart the detective inspector in charge, or is her life about to come crashing down?

This one isn’t as sweepingly epic as the rest of the list but sometimes responses to the little hurts, the small indignities with which we can all identify, are as fascinating as the battle between good an evil. An examination of privilege and determination, willpower and ingenuity, An Elderly Lady Is Up to No Good‘s villain is someone with whom we can all identify, someone irritated by life’s daily bumps but (unlike most of us) without qualms vis a vis resolving them with absolute finality. Plus, there aren’t nearly enough flicks about take-no-shit elderly ladies.

I could go on: Ra’s al Ghul. Talia al Ghul. Jason Todd. Magneto (whose backstory has gotten the quick and dirty in a couple of X-Men movies, but there’s so much more). Killmonger. Ah Puch from J.C. Cervantes’s Storm Runner series. The demons who planned the takeover of San Francisco in Sarah Kuhn’s Heroine series.

There’s so much out there. So much that hasn’t been done or has been done poorly or only in easily digestible moments. Give us those stories. Something new. Something different. Something truly villainous.